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Topic by Greenthumb posted 10-21-2008 06:36 PM 27303 views 0 times favorited 37 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-21-2008 06:36 PM

Hi

I’m looking for input, techincal/structural advice and good ol experience on the following project.

Background information:

I live and work on a small hobby farm (25 acres split 50/50 between forest and field) located on a reasonably busy road just an hour’s drive north of Toronto Ontario, (Zone 5 …...?). The driveway to the house and barn just gets better and better as the maple trees planted on opposite sides get bigger and bigger. A rather picturesque spot.

As most of you know, I am an avid gardener with 5 kids, 3 of which still have their hands out, totally dependent on what lies within my wallet which seems to get thinner and thinner totally unlike my mid section. Sooooo I have to do the best I can with what I have to make ends meet.

We are presently zoned “rural/agricultural” which has a higher tax assesment then if it were to be zoned “Agricultural” and to the best of my knowledge and research to get it changed I need a “GST” license/permit and to get that I need to prove that my net agricultural sales meet or exceed $7.000 gross. There are other tax incentives/write off’s that go with that license. I realize that 7 grand is a whole lot of lettuce, a whole of cabbage and carrots but….....this is my plan.

I made a pretty nice sign thats now done and I’ld like to hang it on or near an outbuilding near the entrance to the driveway. that outbuilding is my question(s) of the day.

Without getting a building permit and I have already done the research as to building regulations, location etc.

The floor footprint cannot exceed 100 square feet which is more then I need as I was thinking floor foot print of maximum 8’ x 12’, preferably that would be the footprint of the roof perimiter looking up, including overhangs. The inside should measure approx 6’ x 8’............that more then enough. Too big of a building will make it proportionally akward and too small just reads “cheap”.

The driveway sides (grass) is quite sloped so pouring a slab on grade isnt an option I’m going to explore leaving two options

1. A small pole building with 6×6 PT right into the ground….........and go from there
2. Put 4 sono tubes down 4’+, 12” dia., fill with concrete and place post saddles in them

I lean toward option # 2…..............what would you do and why?

The building has to compliment my sign and visa versa so I’m thinking timber framed building with timber trussed roof, some kind of curve on the roof lines.

The building already has power at the lamps, close to it. The purpose of it is

1) a place to hang my shingle (sign for advertising) which is why the building has be exceptional.
2) a roadside summer, spring, fall veggie stand.
3) a place where the kids can catch their school bus, out of the howling winter winds and driving seasonal rains.

I presently sell fresh eggs, free range chicken and duck (to friends and family) and this year I made my garden quite a bit bigger and it was big to begin with. This year was a great garden year producing way more then we can eat, freeze and can so I give a ton away to friends, family and clientelle….......this the idea of a roadside stand.

The farmers market in the nearby city of Barrie is growing like a weed, packed with patrons and next year we plan on setting up a booth to sell there too.

Currently we have: Poultry products, smoked salmon, whitefish and trout that is heavenly, the best bar none. Asparagus, rasberries, blueberries, beets, peas, beans, spinach,............the list is huge and growing.

If I dont get posts, or sono tube into the ground within two weeks….............it’s cancelled till the spring fall.

What advice can you offer?

Cheers

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )



View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-21-2008 07:12 PM

I favour sonotubes as they are easy to dig and fill with minimal outlay.
Make sure the comply with local regs.
They changed it out here to minimum 12’ deep for decks and patios. (nuts!)
I ran 5’ on my tool playhouse on 8 ’ centers. ( Shhh!) It’s all sand fer heaven sakes.
I think you may be a little too narrow on your dimensions. 6 feet outside is only 5’2” inside and by the time you sticK on a cooler for perishables( fish etc) you will be pretty tight.
I would be thinking 6’5” minimum. Freezers are 28”.
I could see you selling lots of seed paks in the spring at great returns if you can get a small greenhouse up ,
Now that’s a growth industry.

Cheers
Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View XploreOrganics's profile

XploreOrganics

1393 posts in 2568 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-21-2008 08:52 PM

Is there a reason you need a fixed stand? How about an old wagon/trailor converted into a stand, this way you can put it away for winter and/or drag it to the market if you feel the need.

Samples of what I mean:
http://www.filaskyfarm.com/images/farm_stand.jpg
http://www.smallonesfarm.com/images/farmstand.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/1936223809_e575391e82.jpg?v=0

Otherwise if I were building a permanant structure, I would have to agree with bob on the sonotubes.

-- Xploreorganics, 5b Canada, LFD 06-20 http://colorfulcanary.blogspot.com/

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-21-2008 09:24 PM

I had thought of a mobile stand too but given the written guidlines I was restricted to answering as I did.

Roman said:

“1) a place to hang my shingle (sign for advertising) which is why the building has be exceptional.
2) a roadside summer, spring, fall veggie stand.
3) a place where the kids can catch their school bus, out of the howling winter winds and driving seasonal rains.”

Damn the fine print! <g>

Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View XploreOrganics's profile

XploreOrganics

1393 posts in 2568 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-21-2008 09:30 PM

other than point #3 an movable stand could still work.. :)

-- Xploreorganics, 5b Canada, LFD 06-20 http://colorfulcanary.blogspot.com/

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-21-2008 11:05 PM

Yep. But that would not be what was asked for though would it?

Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View XploreOrganics's profile

XploreOrganics

1393 posts in 2568 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-21-2008 11:27 PM

Just a thought Bob, seems to me you enjoy confrontation. Anyway I thought that maybe this idea may have not crossed his mind and if a fixed stand is exactly what he wants than that is perfectly ok too.

-- Xploreorganics, 5b Canada, LFD 06-20 http://colorfulcanary.blogspot.com/

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-22-2008 12:31 AM

Actually Judy, I enjoy the truth and the freedom to express it.

I enjoy honesty and respect for my fellow space travelers.

I am not fond of folks who continuously cross my bow with misinformation and contrary opinions that have no substance in fact.

I am not particularly enamored of folks that can’t read and or comprehend as they most generally get the wrong idea of whats being written or said.

I am not all that fond of folks that have to be right even if it means changing the subject or distorting the facts.

I don’t know if any of this applies to you but since you brought it up I felt I should clear the air.

Why do I get the feeling that you might be obfuscating?

”“The <building> has to compliment my sign and visa versa””

Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-22-2008 05:54 AM

wow

what does “obfuscating”

mean?

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-22-2008 06:16 AM

Obsfucate
1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: “A great effort was made . . . to obscure or obfuscate the truth” Robert Conquest.

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-22-2008 06:19 AM

appreciate your input Bob

I’m going 2 sleep on that one

sweet dreams everyone

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-22-2008 06:21 AM

and BTW

the pics make me feel like I’m on holidays

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View XploreOrganics's profile

XploreOrganics

1393 posts in 2568 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-22-2008 11:54 AM

Were you addressing me Bob? Hmmm, guess you didn’t quite undertand that my name is Judie…ROLMAO. NM, I was responding to roman, not you, so no need to get your knickers in a knot. (ok, not feeding the troll)

So on to the OT,

Did you decide on a roadside stand roman?

Here is an interesting site with some pointers (I’m sure you have probably thought of many of them already)
http://www.sfc.ucdavis.edu/Pubs/Family_Farm_Series/Marketing/roadside.html

Here is a free plan for a fixed stand:
http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/5699.pdf

More free plans of interest:
http://www.woodworkersworkshop.com/resources/index.php?&cat=416&offset=25
http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/miscplans.htm

Yes, I am aware that they may not be exaclty the size you were looking for but it is just for (ideas) and I am sure you would have no problem scaling them to fit your needs…Regardless, some interesting stuff there.

-- Xploreorganics, 5b Canada, LFD 06-20 http://colorfulcanary.blogspot.com/

View Catspaw's profile

Catspaw

244 posts in 2486 days

10-22-2008 01:12 PM

Actually the question was what would you do and why….not how do I do a fixed building…therefore, the previous posts for a mobile stand are valid.

With that in mind, around here we have codes that allow a bigger building and some “fine print” about whether it is a “shed” ( meaning can it be moved) or a permanent building (fixed.)

I built a 12’ by 20’ that I can move (and have) so I bypass the “permanent” criteria. It has a treated floor system and sits on blocks on the ground. It could be however, that you might have wind issues or even some one putting it on a gooseneck and hauling it off in the middle of the night. And of course the slope (you wouldn’t want to roll or slide away.)

I like sonotubes. I would also say 8’ x 12’ would be better (thinking the sq.ft. applies to the “floor space” rather than the roof line.) 5’ x 8’ is a small bathroom. Barely eoungh for a cooler and inventory. You might be running back and forth getting more inventory all the time (wouldn’t that be encouraging. $$$)

(btw, it’s always nice to fill up a thread with useless typing….too bad the original poster can’t edit out it out so readers of the future looking for info don’t have to filter it all out.)

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist......Zone out....(USA 5)

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-22-2008 03:34 PM

a movable cart, albeit a good idea is not an option. Besides, I already have a pop up camper converted into a multi purpose trailer so that I can have a flat bed trailer, a stake trailer and/or a tent covered trialer. I use it to move rock, lifts of plywood, deliver products…....

sono tubes filled with concrete and saddles inserted

I drew pictures last night …..............looking rather kewl.

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View Catspaw's profile

Catspaw

244 posts in 2486 days

10-23-2008 01:35 AM

HEY!...I know what…is there a limit on how many of these under 100 sq.ft. things you can have? You could always build another one next year to expand! You could have a whole CITY of little buildings!

(o.k. now that’s just stupid…...)

-- arborial reconfiguration specialist......Zone out....(USA 5)

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

14684 posts in 2690 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-23-2008 12:05 PM

in a magazine I was looking at recently a family had a mini-village in their backyard—a blacksmith’s shop, a store, etc.
I thought the idea would be great for sheds in the yard… to hold gardening tools etc.
perhaps the “city of buildings” isn’t such a bad idea. The little sheds for different produce could become a tourist attraction, bringing more customers to the stand(s) just because of the layout.

-- - Debbie, SW Ontario Canada (USDA Hardiness Zone: 5a)

View jroot's profile

jroot

5081 posts in 2320 days
hardiness zone 5a

10-23-2008 01:11 PM

That’s a cool idea, MsDebbieP. I like it. It would look like “something’s happening there”, so people will come. I know that if it looks like something’s happening, I am more prone to stop and check it out. Park a few cars there too. LOL

-- jroot ....... Southern Ontario .......... grow zone 5A ...................."Gardening is an exercise in optimism." ....... . . Author Unknown

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-23-2008 08:23 PM

I love the idea but sono tube is 50 bucks
concrete…...........................200
saddles…............................50
floor framing…......................200
6×6 posts…........................600

+ hydro, roof, roofing, window, door, lights, stone work, plants,...........and on and on

it adds up pretty quick so I kinda doubt that I’m going to make a little village.

cheers

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

14684 posts in 2690 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-23-2008 08:37 PM

it was fun envisioning it :)

yes, realistically—$$$$$ yikes

-- - Debbie, SW Ontario Canada (USDA Hardiness Zone: 5a)

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-24-2008 12:53 AM

Roman: ”6×6 posts…….....................600”

I was hoping you could get 2×8” and PL 400 them with few bolts?
They run about $15.00 /pcs here on 18’ lengths.

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View bbqking's profile

bbqking

41 posts in 2228 days
hardiness zone 8

10-24-2008 01:24 AM

Build the floor of your stand on 4×4 treated skids. Bevel the ends so you could drag it around and move it if you wish. Frame up the walls and roof as you desire, much as you would a garage or other small building. This way you can build your space so that it suits both you and your needs, side steps building codes, and negates any problem with freeze/thaw cycles. For electricity, wire your feed circuit like a camper, where you have a plug on each end of your cord, that feeds your circuit in your “skid stand”. Just my 2 cents. As always, bbqKing.

-- As always, bbqKing. Lawrenceville, Ga.

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-24-2008 07:34 PM

The little mini village does sound nice and I could fill it with a bakery, produce, knitting and quilting, furniture but at this moment it is finacially….........not possible.

Bob…......I was at an Amish auction last year, a very kewl saw mill operation which used horses for power. I bought about 5,000 board feet of 1” pine for the barn siding and I also picked up quite a few 12×12 x 16’ long cedar beams for cheap. I’ll resaw them for the rafters and ridge pole and when combined with a few hand hewn timbers from a barn…....the cost isnt that bad.

BBQ and Bob…......I appreciate your input.

I picked up my sono tube today and if I’m lucky, I’ll drill the post holes this week-end. As for tight floor space …....I would prefer the room be small and if the inside is 5’ + -, thats ok, it only needs to fit the kids for when they catch the school bus. With a smaller interior, it allows for a larger exterior thats covered by the roof, a window door that drops down and acts as an exterior counter, shelves, barrells etc to place veggies on and a small bar fridge for the eggs should suffice.

Having worked for and earning the privilage of doing work the wealthier end of the spectrum, I’ve noticed that keeping outbuildings smaller with a larger roof…........provides lots of room while stopping the building from looking huge. The last thing I want is a disproportionate look of the “bus stop” while seeing the house in the background. The building should compliment the house….....not the other way around. It has to aesthtically (spelling?) pleasing and also…..........it HAS to be somewhat maintenance free.

On the good side, one of the local horse farms just down the road offered to graze a few horses on our pasture which we have 5 fields, one of which is in front of the house….....no vet bills, no feed bills, no nothing but the view of horses grazing…......sooooo horse fencing going up in the spring.

Did I mention I’m getting Cashmere goats?

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-24-2008 07:59 PM

You can’t go wrong with that game plan Roman.
Large roof is a nice feature. I had a 10×10 at the lake with a 30” overhang. Everyone commented on it.

Cashmere goats
I friend of mine has ~ 30 of them.
His wife is the loomer.

Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-24-2008 08:12 PM

thanks for the links

“his wife is a loomer”............mines a tyrant lol

I’ve done a bit of homework on these goats and to me its “win win”

they dont eat much and hay is cheap
they dont jump fences
they arent nasty in disposition
they dont have to be sheared, rather brushed
they dont run away but they do have to be fenced
the babies…....even a hardened convict would be hard pressed not to smile
and their fleece goes for between 16 and 26 bucks an ounce

and lastly….........they taste pretty good

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

14684 posts in 2690 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-24-2008 08:12 PM

sounds like a well-thought-out plan.
Cashmere goats. Fascinating

(love the horse opportunity!! kinda like our dog situation. We get to enjoy Gabby without having to feed her and care for her)

-- - Debbie, SW Ontario Canada (USDA Hardiness Zone: 5a)

View Greenthumb's profile

Greenthumb

2290 posts in 2509 days

10-24-2008 08:21 PM

MsDebbie

Which is your best friend?. Supposing you have one dog and a husband/wife

easy to find out which is your best friend

simply lock both in the trunk of your car for an hour and a half

open the trunk

and see which one is happy to see you?

-- just one more rock, and the garden is done ; )

View Bob's profile

Bob

1429 posts in 2438 days
hardiness zone 3b

10-24-2008 08:25 PM

Last time I tried that they both bit me!

Bob

-- I want to believe in a lot of things but, in the meantime I have to deal with the truth

View GrandmaT's profile

GrandmaT

5389 posts in 2567 days
hardiness zone 9

10-24-2008 08:49 PM

You guys are hilarious!!!!!
Roman, sounds like you might just have a profitable summer coming your way next year. I wish you all the best in the “stand” endeavor … and how cool, cashmere goats!!!! Would you sell the wool locally??

-- "A beautiful garden is a work of heart" --

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

14684 posts in 2690 days
hardiness zone 5b

10-24-2008 10:41 PM

good point, Roman ;)

-- - Debbie, SW Ontario Canada (USDA Hardiness Zone: 5a)

View Cyndibelle's profile

Cyndibelle

51 posts in 2089 days
hardiness zone 4

03-05-2009 07:19 PM

Just curious if anyone has had trouble with a roadside stand and the honesty of people paying for your product? I am in the process of growing produce and flowers for hanging baskets. Because I have a job, I don’t have time to be home during the day and had thought about just putting a hay wagon/cart out there with a list of my prices. Any other suggestions… other than trusting customers to pay?

-- Cyndibelle- Burlington, WI

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GrandmaT

5389 posts in 2567 days
hardiness zone 9

03-05-2009 08:31 PM

Cyndibelle -
How about hiring a student (jr. high or high school age) to watch/cashier your wagon? Or maybe just have your stand open evenings and/or weekends?

-- "A beautiful garden is a work of heart" --

View Cyndibelle's profile

Cyndibelle

51 posts in 2089 days
hardiness zone 4

03-05-2009 08:41 PM

GrandmaT- I did consider doing this. But then I also worry if I am not selling much and paying some kid minimum wage, I may be losing money in the end.

The evenings and weekends would be fine, I guess most people aren’t getting off work until evening just like me. Weekends are definitely times where I would hope to be open and be able to keep an eye on it, but I don’t want to be out there all day sitting, have other things to do on my time off too! (I am starting to think roadside cart is not a good plan for me,?)

I also considered like a survelience camera-but wonder how useful or how much good it would actually do.

-- Cyndibelle- Burlington, WI

View XploreOrganics's profile

XploreOrganics

1393 posts in 2568 days
hardiness zone 5b

03-05-2009 09:21 PM

A farmer friend of mine sells flat-rate veggie bags (10 lbs of mixed garden veggies) and has an “honesty box” he maily does it with leftover veggies that he don’t sell to local store and he said he has yet to find someone steal veggies, and if they did he figures they needed them. He puts 10 – 20 bags on his porch and the mail slot on his house has an honesty box…He asks that people pay $15 a bag will a cute little note (can’t remember exactly what it said) saying something like please pay $20 for those who can only afford to pay $10. He said he gets more $20 payments then $15 or $10 ha.

-- Xploreorganics, 5b Canada, LFD 06-20 http://colorfulcanary.blogspot.com/

View MsDebbieP's profile

MsDebbieP

14684 posts in 2690 days
hardiness zone 5b

03-06-2009 12:40 AM

I went to an “out of the way” antique store once.. everything was on the porch. There was an “honesty box”. You just left a cheque or the cash… There were old rockers for $100.
Now that is TRUSTING

-- - Debbie, SW Ontario Canada (USDA Hardiness Zone: 5a)

View wyndyacre's profile

wyndyacre

24 posts in 2314 days
hardiness zone 6a

03-06-2009 03:16 AM

I’ve been selling perennials in 3-6” pots from a cute, wheeled cart at the end of my driveway for the last 6 years. I work full time so during the week sales have been all on the honour system. I keep the pricing simple, provide a mason jar for money, a small photo album of pictures of mature plants with growing info.

NOT ONCE have I been short changed or stolen from. Often, I have sold 20, 40, 60 dollars worth of plants during the day and all the money is there when I come home. A couple times, one person has bought that many plants at one time and put an envelope of money in my door rather than leave a wad of cash at the road.

A few times, someone has been short of change or cash and left a written IOU in the jar….and they have always come back to pay.

Over the years I have developed a clientele of people that look for the cart every spring.

Here’s my little cart. I rescued it from the junk pile…are you all beginning to recognize a recurring theme in my life? :)...and fixed it up with new paint, canopy, the top shelves and shingled the front to match my barn and greenhouse.

Plant cart

View mario1360's profile

mario1360

921 posts in 2105 days
hardiness zone 5a

03-06-2009 04:02 PM

wow this is cool wyndyacre, i wish i could find some of these roadside stands around here, it would be great to discover stuff i dont have, and by the way your greenhouse is outstanding…

-- south shore montreal, zone 5a, whish it was 9

View GrandmaT's profile

GrandmaT

5389 posts in 2567 days
hardiness zone 9

03-06-2009 06:04 PM

What an adorable cart!!! And how nice to hear from a few of you that the “honor system” works and is alive and well!!!

-- "A beautiful garden is a work of heart" --

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